Unbound with Chris DuBois

Want to feel empowered and gain confidence in your selling? Today's guest will help you do just that. Are you a leader trying to get more from your business in life? Me too. So join me as I document the conversations, stories and advice to help you achieve what matters in your life. Welcome to unbound with me, Chris DuBois. Darlene per day is an empathetic and relational sales coach. She has over 25 years in leadership roles and helps empower leaders to gain the confidence to sell as an extension of who they are. And not just to follow a cookie cutter approach. Today we're going to learn more about this. Darlene, welcome to unfound. Thank you so much for having me, Chris. So this is gonna be a fun interview. And I would love to start by letting our listeners learn more about you and just some of your background. Sure. So I've been in sales for most of my most of my career. In fact, my entire career, even as a kid, I was in retail sales, and then it just evolved from there. And currently, with opening up my own coaching business, I really have seen people that needed support needed help over and over again, we live in an age where everybody is a coach. So I was kind of I'm like the reluctant coach, I kind of didn't get into it. But then, as I saw the need, and I just wanted to help and empower people do what they do best. Yeah. Awesome. And so your focus is around empathetic and relational sales. Yes. Yeah, let's go deeper on that. Yeah, so So again, I've been in sales for most of my life. And the way I've sold has always been a natural extension of who I was, nobody really taught me how to sell, I just kind of did it and just kept, kept kind of honing my craft. As I got into a real career and in different things I actually was in my first career was more of marketing and product development. And I would sit in on the sales meetings. And inevitably, I would be the one that the buyer was looking at the post to the VP of sales, because I was the one telling them you don't need everything, you need this, you need that and really understanding who their customer was and what was best for them. And I saw very quickly that then I started getting brought in with any of the bigger accounts. So even though my role was in sales, they always brought me in. So then I started focusing more on that in my my next role. And what I found worked best was really just operating authentically, really caring about the client, understanding what they needed, and just sharing what we did. Where wherever I had worked. As you know, there's a million sales coaches out there, there's programs, different things like that. I've had, I've taken a lot of those courses, and I try to very early in my career kind of fit myself into those buckets and, and those boxes of oh, I'm not doing this, I'm not doing that, you know, I got to I have to have a harder sell. I have to be more convincing. It always backfired. It always backfires. So I then just again, being a little bit of a rebel to I just kind of just did my own thing. And while empathetic sales, seems like it might be weak, I actually was always the top producer wherever I worked. Right? So actually, it's so let's let's get into that base specifically, for some reason. So sales is like super competitive world, right? Like you can never have just one sales team member you have to have to so that they compete with each other. I think a lot of sales reps would say empathetic sales sounds weak. Yet, when you can actually engage with someone, it obviously works better because if the person feels heard, why is it that so many people have a hard time getting getting that through? I think it's because there's so much noise out there for what sales should be or what works in sales and, you know, sales. I said for years, I did not put a label of empathetic on it for many years. I just operated that way. And it wasn't until a couple of years ago when I went through a branding seminar that I actually put a label on what I did empathetic and relational sales. Before that I just again operated in what I knew. But you're right. There's such competitiveness, there's different things in the field. I hate competition. I like I like competing with myself. If there's a goal, or even if I exceed that goal, I'm always to make looking to make myself better, but I don't like, I don't like competing with other people. I like to stay in my own lane, I do my best when I operate that way. So again, everything that's probably counterintuitive to what a salesperson should be, or whatever it may look like. But the end result is the client, right? If we're putting ourselves in that person, shoes and building trust, that is the goal of the sales call, not whether you sell or not. But if you're gaining that trust, you're building credibility, reliability, you are going to start developing a network of people that come to you and look for you look for your solution, or your recommendation for a solution without feeling like they have to hide from you because they know they're going to get a pitch. That makes sense. I'm wondering how much of your your background in marketing, I guess, kind of led to you having this belief in sales, that it can be done this way, and just how you're approaching it? I don't know. I also think sales and marketing there's not, you know, I know that there's a divide now we have marketing departments, sales departments, I always feel there's such a disconnect between the two at times, right? I think it has to be, if you truly believe in what you are providing, you're going to be your best advocate for what you're selling. And naturally, you're going to promote it because you know, the lives you change with helping people. If you don't have that confidence, no marketing campaign, if you don't, if there's no results, no marketing campaign is going to help you. Or if your marketing campaign says one thing and your sales, say another, you're going to confuse the client, you're going to build distrust. So it really has to be hand in hand. And I think, again, back to the selling, I think it is just intuitive to me to read people, and to be able to connect with them and want to help them before I was ever in marketing. So I guess what advice would you give someone in order to get them to kind of replicate some of those same skills, so that they can be empathetic, so it might not come naturally to a lot of people? Yeah, so I think I think there's a couple of steps. While I don't believe there's a one size fits all, for anything in life, we're all unique. And I also think my approach to clients are not going to maybe fit well with you. There's principles, and there's things that you can glean. But I think first and foremost, because I do deal with coaches and I deal with service providers is really know your value, know your value and just convey your value know who you can really help being the salesperson, you want to say no to as many people as you can, who you're not going to be able to help well, because again, if you're not delivering on the other side, that's not going to help your reputation, and it's just going to turn clients. So really knowing who you can serve well how you can serve them well, and not approaching that quote unquote, sales call as a sales call, approach it as a discovery call, understanding what the client needs, understanding, you know, sharing how you can help them really lets their guard down and also creates your understanding of what they would need. Now, it doesn't have to be mushy, if you're a male, you could still operate very much this way, where you're going to give value to that person. I'm not a mushy person, either. But, you know, it's not like I'm like sunshine and lollipops or anything like them, but I really truly want to help. So I think you can adapt it to your nature, I like to use a lot of humor. That's just me, I like to joke and I'm a little sarcastic and, and I'm a little loud, but you know, somebody else who's more introverted or more quiet can still operate on those same principles with their natural bend and come across authentic. Yeah, I love that entire approach. I mean, everything we do with a dynamic leadership model is is very much there is no one way. So why don't we we look at this holistically and see what's the best way for us with all these variables. And so the fact that you're approaching that same thing with sales is like, awesome. It gives a little more credence to the to the idea too. So we have a lot of startup founders that are listening And very frequently, at the start of the onset of their company, right, they're in running sales, they're doing it all themselves. But at some point, they need to be able to do other things they got to bring on a sales team and that sales team is, they're never going to be as good at selling it, as the founder is until, you know, everybody gets into the flow, and they get the system set up. I think a lot of founders run into the issue of giving a script and saying to their sales reps and saying, why are we not getting these results? Can you talk to some of the dangers of just giving a script and expecting great sales? Yeah, so one of the things that I have noticed with scaling companies, too, and this is a little off of the question that you asked, but I think it's an important point is that even when those founders remove or CEOs whenever removed themselves out of the sales process, they still have to be the voice of the company, they still have to be the they are going to be the best evangelist for what you know, the company is selling. So just completely, I think what sometimes people do is they're like, Oh, I hired a salesperson. Now they're wearing a different hat when everybody in the company should be selling ever, just like every person in the company should have customer service. I don't care what your role is, everybody can contribute to sales and client success, maybe not as far as a sales call. But as far as making sure that the value prop is there that the service is there, and all of those other things. The danger of having a quote unquote, script, because even the clients that I work with, I give them talking points is that if you give them a script that is not natural to them, you could have five salespeople, everybody's going to have a different style. If you are not letting them operate, what's natural to them. Within those guardrails and parameters, you are creating robots, and that comes across as inauthentic. Even if all the information is there, even if they seamlessly habit memorized, it's still going to come across as inauthentic. Because it is not who that person is. So those are the dangers. Right? And so I guess, would you approach it as a hero, you're talking points that every rep needs, bring in your own flair. And your own personality, in these ways, is that kind of yes, they have to be there. Because in a sales call, there's a couple of different things, you want to convey the value, you want to make sure you're hitting all the points to inform the client. But you don't want to do that at the expense of not actively listening and hearing what that client is saying. If most of the clients I talked to don't really know what they need, they don't know if they need a business coach, they don't know if they need a sales coach. They don't you know, it just depends. So if I just went in with my points and hit them, I could possibly make the sale, but it's not what they need. And again, back to client satisfaction. So actively listening and adjusting what you're talking about to what the client is saying is super important. And so, as you're treating, treating all of these calls as a discovery call, right? It's still it's like you have to be empathetic in order to actually hear what they're saying. Yes. Are there any? Are there any certain things you use as like triggers or keywords, phrases, things that you're waiting for the the prospect, I guess, to say that kind of key you in on on a direction that you can go? Is there a way you're training that? You know, I think it's asking open ended questions digging in more if you if the client or the prospect says something, dig into it, what did you mean by that everybody has different perceptions. They may be thinking in their head, they're very clear what they are saying to you, but they may not be or you may not be understanding, repeating it back like so what I'm hearing you saying is you're struggling with XY and Z that gives them room to say no, wait a minute, you misunderstood me I have that I need this or yes, you're right on target. So really having that conversation and digging deep. To make sure that the understanding is there is important and not just assuming because a lot of times you can have those calls. They kind of all blend together. They're they're sounding the same. You can look at two people from the same type of company, same size and everything they need completely different needs. and allowing them to kind of brainstorm with you to see what they need and make sure it is your service. Right. So prioritizing clarity. Yeah, really, really great point to pull from that. Let's talk about the importance of niching. Down. Yeah. How do you approach narrowing an audience? I think, you know, again, I work with a lot of solopreneurs a lot of small businesses. And I think sometimes the fear is, well, I could serve everybody, you know, I just had a call with someone, and I was like, Who is your target market, and he was like, I can serve everybody. And I'm like, okay, but you need to niche down. So I'm giving, like I'm schooling him on niching down, as opposed to even what I do, right? Getting that clarity of who his customer is. And he was like, But wait a minute, there's all of these people that I can still serve. If I niche down, I'm missing out on that. The problem is, you know, as well as I do, Chris, there's so much noise out there, there is a solution for everything, there's a coach for everything, there's just a lot of noise. If somebody cannot hear what you're saying, or go to your website and see themselves in that. They're going to pass you by even if you could serve them. I'm not saying that never serve anybody that's not in your niche, but niching down and having having valid, like a beloved avatar of who you can serve and how well you can serve them. You may have somebody from another industry, a bigger company, that's like, that's me. And I need that. So they'll come to you, you're not excluding them. But you're not missing the bulk of who you're looking for. So I agree with all that, because I've looked at, like, yes, we have a very large total addressable market. And if you look at everybody, it's like, but how much? How watered down? Does your message have to be in order for you to target it? Yes. I will. Not many years ago, I was in the fashion industry. And there was a clip, like the hair except like, I designed hair accessories. And there was a clip for thick hair. And, you know, the, the CEO of the company was like, yes, but like, you're you're limiting that you're limiting that. But there was a clip for everything, right. And when we did it for thick hair, because there was a lot for thin hair, there was a lot for everybody's hair. We did it for thick hair. And it was so wildly successful that it actually just opened up our market more than we ever thought. Yeah, cuz now someone looking at any of the marketing assets, or even just the name of the product can say that's exactly. So you didn't have to read the description of 50 different hair types to know that it was for them. Right. Awesome. So alright, let's take this in a potentially fun direction. So let's assume I am a client of yours. And can you kind of walk me through the steps you would take to help me achieve targeted result? Your your coaching? Yeah, absolutely. So first, it starts with a discovery call, I want to understand if again, back to making sure this is the right client, even if they are my beloved avatar that I'm going to be the best solution for them. If we're in agreement that that's it, because I like to under promise over deliver and make sure that they're going to be super happy. We move to this, the additional in depth discovery phase where I send this discovery form that has an extensive amount of questions and different things. So I can really understand their business a little bit. And then I do my due diligence, and I do a business assessment, high level overview because again, sales is not in a funnel, like it's not in a vacuum, you have to look at everything. And I do kind of a drive by assessment of, you know, the whole SWOT analysis, where's their strengths? Where's their weaknesses? Where are opportunities, all of those different things? And then I meet with them again, and we go through in depth what their sales process or lack of or what they do now, what do they do today with the sales including, you know, how would they sell what like how do they follow up all of those different things? And then I create from there a sales strategy that is going to make sense for them. I provide a discovery form so they're getting in the right people. Talking Points, not script but talking points, how to overcome what are their typical objections how to and then I tell them, how do you overcome that? How do you come alongside create a referral program? A follow up cadences. Most people that are not in sales do not follow up, they get a no. And that's the end of it. And it may not be. Now, it may not be like, they may love your service, but they may not need you for a year or whatever it may be. So I help them with a cadence like if then if they're like, No, or what, you know, this is really not for me, it's never going to be for me, do you have strategic partnerships built in that you can hand them off to somebody as a solution. So this way that you're still making an impact on them, they're coming to you for a solution, right may not be the solution, but you're handing them off to somebody who is. And then I just, you know, I so I built out the whole strategy, talking points everything and give them so within a month, they are able to go and sell on their own and be their best evangelist. Two weeks later, I follow up to see what's working, what's not working, did something feel clunky in this process, right? Because things sometimes look good on paper, right? It's like things can look good on paper. And then when you're actually executing it, and we look very different. So we tweak it to make sure that it is a great fit, that they can replicate over and over and over again. And the more that they do it, the more they're going to take ownership over it. And it's really going to be natural. And how frequently are you doing check ins after that, once a so so the way that I the way that I do it is that's my intensive, and then they can hire me for Rapid Fire coaching, which is three months where they can just have me where they're sending me a sales call, or maybe they have a new offering that they need talking points and stuff. And that is just a retainer. But a lot of my clients are really like I kick them out of the nest, and they are good to go after that month process. That's awesome. I mean, that's the fact that you can do it after a month and get them the attention span. I like quick deliveries for myself. And most people that I work with are entrepreneurs, they need to move the needle, they don't you know, nobody wants to sit, right. Like, you know, it's not like they have to learn some master craft or whatever it may be, there are good principles that they can put into action fairly quickly. Most of the clients have it in them too. They need somebody to systemize their process, help them lay it out, and really encourage them like this is what you're doing right. And then they keep operating that way. I think something that a lot a lot of startup founders, especially in the more junior stages struggle with is lead generation. Right. And so for a lot of them, they're looking at some of these opportunities with getting appointment setters to just even though they're, they're still gonna be the ones taking the call. But they're having someone else reach out find these, you have a lot of experience with just people actually finding success with essentially, you know, having, because you need to know your target market right now I have to be able to tell the setters, this is who I want to talk to. And you're just gonna be getting a bunch of these calls. Is there any value in just getting those reps in for those calls? Is it? I would say this is probably the most voted question depends on the industry, if it's, if it's a coach or service based where you are the owner, founder and you're the one going to be doing it. I do not you don't need volume, you don't need to spend your days on talking to people that will not afford you and different things like that. And appointment setters I would say those are for bigger companies where you have more of an outreach and more of a team and stuff like that. I also think we are in a world and I'm sure you experienced this, where people are just not like maybe not cold calling but cold emails, which you know, has validity at times. But one thing that bothers me is cold outreach on LinkedIn. I do not want to connect with someone who is like, Oh, I would love to connect with you only to get a sales pitch in the next aim. You know, the next message. I think it's cheesy. I think it's horrible. And even if they have a great service, I ignore them. I ignore them because it's just so inauthentic. The number of those messes like heaven forbid someone adds owner or CEO to their title because you just get bombarded with those and You're 100%, correct? They, hey, I'm so happy to connect and join your network. And then the very next message is, hey, are you looking for someone to help you with this? Be honest, like, if you want to connect with somebody and share what you do, don't guys it as a virtual coffee and then pitch them. Don't go to networking events, and just pitch people, people will start running from you, right? There's a lot of great long working events out there. There's a lot of virtual coffee clubs, all different things like that, that you can share what you do without pitching, but then also, it's that, you know, you want to help the other person, be able to, if you can refer them some people. So building those strategic partnerships, and those the strategic partnerships and the referral programs and different things like that. So this way, you're not the only one you have not appointment setters, but you have so many people in the industry that know what you do know who you can help. And if their clients need it, they're sending that way, that is much a much better approach to business development than just throwing it out there for everybody. Darlene, this has been fantastic conversation, a lot of great, great value in here. I'm gonna go through the three questions I asked everybody. First, what book would you recommend that everyone ever read? The Go Giver, sells more by Bob Berg and John David Mann. I love, love, love that book. It's a lot of the principles that I've operated with. And then somebody put it in writing, and I can't recommend it enough. I read it all the time. It's good refreshers, I mean, good encouragement. And it really helps with those principles of how to operate authentically and really with a servant heart versus trying to sell. Awesome, I had to grab a copy of that one. Excellent. What is next for you professionally? Yeah. So I don't I don't know. I don't know. I'm building I'm building my my coaching business. I think I'm going to change up some offerings. I have a couple of irons in the fire as every entrepreneur does. But I'm really enjoying the journey. I'm trying to look at this process as more of more of a journey as opposed to a destination and, and I'm really enjoying the people I'm meeting along the way. And as you're creating these new offers, where can people find this? Sure, so they can visit my website DP dash consults.com. Or look me up on LinkedIn as long as you're not pitching me or request and feel free to get on a discovery call and pick my brain because as I mentioned, I have an incredible network to share. So, Darlene, thank you for joining me today. It's been a great conversation. Very glad we had you. Thank you for having me. If you enjoyed today's episode, I would love a rating and review on your favorite podcast player. And for more information on how to build effective and efficient teams through your leadership, visit leading four.com And as always deserve it